When I heard CB say " you just have to kick the whole concept of art out on its whore ass" I stopped trying to be cool and in, and just bought camouflage sweat pants and started trying to be nice to people ask get really into gardening and communes...it's kind of working, any cool hipsters that come to the commune either come apart like soft bread in a week or so and leave or are absorbed into our tribal homebirths with everyone watching and learning level madness
In terms of "hipster" culture and the avant-garde, is one of your points similar to the point made by JM Keynes, below, about economists and political philosophers? That the effect of their ideas on society is far more powerful than we typically give them credit for?
"The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually slaves of some defunct economist.”
I met Alice Neel by accident at her show at Whitney. She came always to see how people reacted to her work. She took me through her show the WPA days in Harlem, deserted by guitar play w/2 kids. One died, he’s in that show. So was Warhol after he was shot. She painted his body as a map. Suffering is the tale. He painted soup cans because he worked in a factory that made them. Valerie was a “bad girl” but unlike the Gorilla girls— she wore no
Mask and made no great art. Making scenes always easier.
That is the paradox of hipster-ness is how ephemeral it all really is. I glanced at a headline in Vulture. It said "Lou Reed's Final Days: 'I Don't Want to Be Erased'" Ties into this, with Lou Reed arguably being Warhol's biggest export.
For years I have skewed more hipster but this year I have almost exclusively turned hippie-ish, which has soured me on Warhol and how much he contributed to our narcissistic age. But even now his impact never ceases to amaze me.
Yes, it’s a constantly moving stage without any permanence. I used to be a hipster as a part of my persona, but I realized it was just a way to mask my sincere opinions. It was juvenile and dismissive armor.
I actually have a lot of respect for the scene that Andy created due to the creative output that emerged from it (nobody will ever forget the sounds of The Velvet Underground, Edie Sedgwick became a fashion icon that created a subversive hybrid of posh and punk, the entire aesthetic of modern art lofts were inspired by the scene) but the way he treated Edie, Valerie, and others shows that he was a deeply troubled narcissist that was incapable of running even his own show.
As we were discussing last week, there are parallels between The Factory scene and Dimes Square, but the main difference is how real artistic exports came out of The Factory. The egotistical pandering is quite similar, though. Still, Andy was an icon, which I can’t say about anyone in DS.
Andy, like Valerie, became a symbol and an archetype. These were troubled legends who influenced millions, as I sought to illustrate with this piece. Everyone in these scenes is both an Andy and a Valerie. It’s a rotating door that never ends.
Well certainly the Factory was more important than Dimes Square. But how can anyone create anything impactful nowadays? As Brad Troemel said in the Cloutbombing Report, journalists were desperate to write about ANY scene so that's why they wrote about Dimes Square. But as he said there are more articles about DS than actual work.
The bigger picture is though (as you have seen me say time and again) is there is no more art or pop culture period. Everything is reheated leftovers. AI is a credible threat. But i am also curious what happens in the vacuum. Hopefully not just Dimes Square but we will see
Would you count independent artists and musicians who are releasing their own outsider material as pop culture? There will always be an underground. It’s just not as popular now as it was in the 90s. We are definitely in a nostalgia and remix era, but independent producers continue to do their own things. They are usually not commercially viable, but do they still count?
I do believe there will be an underground except there will be no above ground to cover it. As I'm sure you know there are several undergrounds. The hallowed place that Warhol filled and now Dimes Square is trying to fill (that the media is trying to push them in [although Vanity Fair has officially labeled LA the new home of dissident counterculture]) is -- or will be -- extinct. It has been clearer and clearer that both successful artists and celebrities have familial and cronyistic connections. Speaking of connections, I see the underground(s) more as a site of meeting friends and bonding. Before 2020, being famous was IT. Now, between the loneliness epidemic and the devaluation of celebrity, I would imagine a sort of anti-Factory of friends who create TRULY regardless of outcome or status because status on social or on Hollywood are even rarer than before
Ha! No wonder I saw echoes of that book in your writing! It’s been a big influence on me over the years - I’m all about the idea that countercultures are a universal, historical phenomena going back to pre-history.
I’m sort of in that R.U. Sirius headspace - Robert Anton Wilson my primary influence, very psychedelic occult mystic neo-hippie counterculture. Except I spend most of my time writing about war, crime, terrorism, stupid politicians, and hate groups these days. ✌️❤️
Looking forward to your further insights on these themes... 🍎🐍
Sounds fascinating. Hunter S. Thompson vibes. I grew up on Robert Anton Wilson too. The Illuminati Trilogy and Prometheus Rising were like my intro to life. Best headspace.
"The Hunter S. Thompson of Zionism" is kind of what I'm going for right now. He's a huge influence too - only the gonzo journalism that interests me is investigating the far left, the far right, and Islamist terrorists. Fun stuff! I'm just trying not to end up like he did...
Cosmic Trigger is probably my favorite book - and prepared me for my own psychedelic explorations - which have been very helpful treatments with my PTSD.
This is gonna piss off everyone. I love it. Also a huge Rushkoff fan, and chatted with James Wasserman before he passed. We come from a similar universe.
When I heard CB say " you just have to kick the whole concept of art out on its whore ass" I stopped trying to be cool and in, and just bought camouflage sweat pants and started trying to be nice to people ask get really into gardening and communes...it's kind of working, any cool hipsters that come to the commune either come apart like soft bread in a week or so and leave or are absorbed into our tribal homebirths with everyone watching and learning level madness
Sounds like you need a documentary.
In terms of "hipster" culture and the avant-garde, is one of your points similar to the point made by JM Keynes, below, about economists and political philosophers? That the effect of their ideas on society is far more powerful than we typically give them credit for?
"The ideas of economists and political philosophers, both when they are right and when they are wrong are more powerful than is commonly understood. Indeed, the world is ruled by little else. Practical men, who believe themselves to be quite exempt from any intellectual influences, are usually slaves of some defunct economist.”
robertsdavidn.substack.com/about
Yes, exactly. Hipsters set the tone. So far ahead of the curve they get left behind, as I like to put it.
I met Alice Neel by accident at her show at Whitney. She came always to see how people reacted to her work. She took me through her show the WPA days in Harlem, deserted by guitar play w/2 kids. One died, he’s in that show. So was Warhol after he was shot. She painted his body as a map. Suffering is the tale. He painted soup cans because he worked in a factory that made them. Valerie was a “bad girl” but unlike the Gorilla girls— she wore no
Mask and made no great art. Making scenes always easier.
That is the paradox of hipster-ness is how ephemeral it all really is. I glanced at a headline in Vulture. It said "Lou Reed's Final Days: 'I Don't Want to Be Erased'" Ties into this, with Lou Reed arguably being Warhol's biggest export.
For years I have skewed more hipster but this year I have almost exclusively turned hippie-ish, which has soured me on Warhol and how much he contributed to our narcissistic age. But even now his impact never ceases to amaze me.
Yes, it’s a constantly moving stage without any permanence. I used to be a hipster as a part of my persona, but I realized it was just a way to mask my sincere opinions. It was juvenile and dismissive armor.
I actually have a lot of respect for the scene that Andy created due to the creative output that emerged from it (nobody will ever forget the sounds of The Velvet Underground, Edie Sedgwick became a fashion icon that created a subversive hybrid of posh and punk, the entire aesthetic of modern art lofts were inspired by the scene) but the way he treated Edie, Valerie, and others shows that he was a deeply troubled narcissist that was incapable of running even his own show.
As we were discussing last week, there are parallels between The Factory scene and Dimes Square, but the main difference is how real artistic exports came out of The Factory. The egotistical pandering is quite similar, though. Still, Andy was an icon, which I can’t say about anyone in DS.
Andy, like Valerie, became a symbol and an archetype. These were troubled legends who influenced millions, as I sought to illustrate with this piece. Everyone in these scenes is both an Andy and a Valerie. It’s a rotating door that never ends.
Well certainly the Factory was more important than Dimes Square. But how can anyone create anything impactful nowadays? As Brad Troemel said in the Cloutbombing Report, journalists were desperate to write about ANY scene so that's why they wrote about Dimes Square. But as he said there are more articles about DS than actual work.
The bigger picture is though (as you have seen me say time and again) is there is no more art or pop culture period. Everything is reheated leftovers. AI is a credible threat. But i am also curious what happens in the vacuum. Hopefully not just Dimes Square but we will see
Would you count independent artists and musicians who are releasing their own outsider material as pop culture? There will always be an underground. It’s just not as popular now as it was in the 90s. We are definitely in a nostalgia and remix era, but independent producers continue to do their own things. They are usually not commercially viable, but do they still count?
I do believe there will be an underground except there will be no above ground to cover it. As I'm sure you know there are several undergrounds. The hallowed place that Warhol filled and now Dimes Square is trying to fill (that the media is trying to push them in [although Vanity Fair has officially labeled LA the new home of dissident counterculture]) is -- or will be -- extinct. It has been clearer and clearer that both successful artists and celebrities have familial and cronyistic connections. Speaking of connections, I see the underground(s) more as a site of meeting friends and bonding. Before 2020, being famous was IT. Now, between the loneliness epidemic and the devaluation of celebrity, I would imagine a sort of anti-Factory of friends who create TRULY regardless of outcome or status because status on social or on Hollywood are even rarer than before
For some reason you're reminding me of this book... have you read it? https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/61107/counterculture-through-the-ages-by-ken-goffman-aka-r-u-sirius-and-dan-joy/
Haven’t read the whole thing, but Ken consulted me for parts of it, interestingly enough. We used to work together.
Ha! No wonder I saw echoes of that book in your writing! It’s been a big influence on me over the years - I’m all about the idea that countercultures are a universal, historical phenomena going back to pre-history.
I’m sort of in that R.U. Sirius headspace - Robert Anton Wilson my primary influence, very psychedelic occult mystic neo-hippie counterculture. Except I spend most of my time writing about war, crime, terrorism, stupid politicians, and hate groups these days. ✌️❤️
Looking forward to your further insights on these themes... 🍎🐍
Sounds fascinating. Hunter S. Thompson vibes. I grew up on Robert Anton Wilson too. The Illuminati Trilogy and Prometheus Rising were like my intro to life. Best headspace.
"The Hunter S. Thompson of Zionism" is kind of what I'm going for right now. He's a huge influence too - only the gonzo journalism that interests me is investigating the far left, the far right, and Islamist terrorists. Fun stuff! I'm just trying not to end up like he did...
My approach: https://godofthedesert.substack.com/p/7-great-counterculture-authors-who
Cosmic Trigger is probably my favorite book - and prepared me for my own psychedelic explorations - which have been very helpful treatments with my PTSD.
This is gonna piss off everyone. I love it. Also a huge Rushkoff fan, and chatted with James Wasserman before he passed. We come from a similar universe.
Cheers to psychedelic therapy too.
Thank you for your kindness and for being a kindred spirit. Excited to read more of your writing! ✌️❤️🤗